Mo Rocca on Creativity, Comedy, and Obit Con vs Comic Con

“I highly recommend shooting marbles with Vanna White.”

[Transcript]

00:33

To Association Chat and online discussion for the association community where we warm ourselves by the virtual fire, welcoming thought leaders and trailblazers alike to join up in this online home for the community. I’m the host of Association Chat KiKi L’Italien and today we are talking with none other than American humorist Mo Rocca. Mo is a journalist. He’s a correspondent for CBS Sunday morning. He’s the host and creator of My Grandmother’s Ravioli on the cooking channel host of the Henry Ford’s Innovation Nation on CBS and also published a book called Mobituaries: Great Lives Worth Reliving. You can also hear him on the obituaries podcast Mobituaries. Welcome. I’m so excited to talk with you today!

 

01:25

Thanks, KiKi. I’m so excited to be associating with you.

 

01:29

Associating and nice! I see what you did there. Alright, so I have to thank you because I cannot believe you’ve taken the time to talk with association people like us. When you spend your time doing fascinating research on dead people. You’re on “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me…” and you just shot marbles with Vanna White. I mean, what’s that all about?

 

01:54

Well, look, I I got tired of hanging out with the institution people. So that’s why I moved on. To the association people and you… everyone knows the organization people are super boring. And the foundation people just ask for money from it. I highly recommend shooting marbles with Vanna White. Vanna White, you know, it’s funny. I shot an interview with Vanna White right before people started sheltering in place because it all happens so quickly. And it turned out, at least based on viewer responses was a piece for CBS Sunday morning, that she’s kind of the tonic that everyone needed. First of all, she’s it maybe this shouldn’t have come as a surprise to me. She’s so popular and among so many different types of people. But I think especially in a moment that let’s face it can be seems is is very gloomy for a lot of people right now, you know, with this pandemic. Vanna White is I mean, she’s kind of it’s a perennial, I mean when when the rest of us are She’ll still be sure the turn the letters, she’ll still be touching those letters. Oh,

 

03:05

and she’ll touch the letters in our hearts. You know. There is a TV movie with Vanna White that I remember from my youth that she played like Aphrodite or something. Do you remember this?

 

Gosh, it was probably, you know, I do so many pieces that I sort of wipe the hard drive clean at one point

 

03:24

maybe better I don’t know. Like it wasn’t it wasn’t necessarily the best but I just I keep going back and I think she looks the same. It’s amazing. I don’t know how this woman does it, but she might she might be Aphrodite. I don’t know what to say.

 

03:40

But the one one thing we weren’t able to get in the piece. Regrettably piece of a tight time constraints is that you know, thematically what we talked about is that she really does root for the contestants to win and I know that sounds silly and that sounds trite. But people can pick up, you know, through that TV screen people can pick up, I think genuine distance, they can pick up sincerity. I mean, some people can fake it, but you can’t fake it for that many years. And I think people do realize that she really is on the side of these people. And she told me at one point, how moved she was that one contestant a few years ago after winning a big amount of money. When she walked over towards him. She could hear him under his breath. Say, now I can buy a truck. And I think he was somebody who had been having to borrow a truck. I don’t remember what the circumstance was, but, but it was one of those things where it struck her. This is a big deal for people.

 

04:48

Wow. Yeah. Well, you know, and speaking of big deals, I mean, how has this has been such a crazy year, how has 2020 impacted you because you know, you talked about are you doing now what you thought you’re going to be doing when the year started? Probably not.

 

05:06

No, I’m, I tried to look certainly workwise to look at this as a creative challenge. So CBS Sunday morning is ostensibly, you know, the, it’s been on for more than 40 years. It’s an arts and culture program. So we don’t do we definitely do some current events. But um, but I wanted one of the tricks during this time is how did you pieces creatively that are one foot in one foot out? So you don’t want to do pieces all about the pandemic? Is that what people would come to us for and of course, it would get you down and that’s not what we’re there for. But you also don’t want to do pieces that are so escapist, that they just seem like they just seem tone deaf. Yeah. And so that’s been sort of, so that’s been it. That’s kept me going through a lot of this is figuring out what I can do that gives people something of a break is edifying, entertaining, certainly, but doesn’t seem out of time in place. So things like, you know, the history of the handshake, because who knows when the handshake will come back and if ever really will pieces like that or the history of quackery of quack medicine. And and so that’s it, it’s been a creative challenge and that’s been good.

 

06:35

Yeah, well, I think it’s definitely taking us to new and unusual places because, you know, it hasn’t things haven’t gone according to plan. And as a result of that, you know, we’re we’re forced to come up with new ways of doing all kinds of stuff. So it’s really been interesting to me to see that technology. We’ve had technology to help people create virtual events and and you Virtual versions of things for years. And then, but nobody felt, you know, push to do it or to do remote working and stuff like that and to see like what Broadway’s doing and I know you, you’re involved with the Broadway scene, coming up with new ways for people to perform together and to create together is it’s inspiring, but I have to imagine everyone’s sick of like, sick of trying to do stuff from home, you know?

 

07:26

Yeah, I think I think that’s right. It will be interesting to see what stays with us and, and, you know, of course, there were things that needed to modernize. I know when in my job, there are certain things that will that will remain one thing and I’m making a mental on trying to do it right now as I speak is everyone tends to shout on zoom. We’re not on suit right now. We’re on stream yard. But it’s so that’s one thing I I actually lost my voice at one point because I was doing so many interviews and I was talking If I needed you know, somebody in Nebraska to hear me without any amplification hear me? Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so that’s, that’s one of the adjustments. Hopefully we’ll make it.

 

08:11

Yeah. Well, you know, I haven’t I don’t have how I can even track that. Do you put like a sound? I mean, are you tracking your sound at home? How are you making sure that you’re not screaming?

 

08:21

Um, well, I could tell when I lost my voice for a stretch that I probably was talking too loudly. And that I didn’t need to be doing that. But you know, it is interesting. I mean, you know, and is I’m doing podcasting and radio. It’s not just a cliche when they say that intimacy it that these are intimate mediums. And I do wonder, like, if we continue, I really mean this meeting in congregating part of the time online, how we can replicate the experience that we actually get when we you know, meet in a warm market. cosy hotel conference room but you know what I mean? How can we do that? And, and the first thing is probably not shouting online, but um, but it’s Yeah, it’s, it’s, um, that’s that’s gonna be one of the challenges as

 

09:14

well. So our topic for today was talking about humor during times of adversity. And you know, you have done an interesting dance throughout your entire career, whether looking at what you were talking about, like the Daily Show, or, you know, the pieces that you do, oftentimes, for CDs, you end up you ended up doing these pieces that sometimes are this balance of talking about something pretty serious, but also being able to either poke fun at it or have fun with it or, you know, remind people that there’s humor and in even difficult situations, what how has How has your role with Humor than affected during I’ll just say this year because it’s not just the pandemic. It’s like economic turmoil and political unrest and you know, social contracts blowing up and all kinds of stuff. Um, what, what do you see? Or how do you see your role as humourist during during the year like 2020?

 

10:24

Well, I’ll tell you, um, I think I learned. I actually think when I when I was way back when I was on The Daily Show, I learned that and I don’t think the Daily Show revolutionizes, I think this was, you know, jack Paar all late night show hosts, you know, demonstrated this but that life isn’t divided into hour long dramas and half hour sitcoms, right to use a metaphor that people over a certain age will understand the the millennials won’t understand that because they’re all online streaming, but that that, you know, That funny moments and incredibly poignant and sad or terrifying things in life, you know, live cheek by Chow like yes. And I really put it in so I learned that I think because jon stewart would tell jokes and then have a hard hitting interview with the you know, a government official, but I really put it to use in my own life when I was doing my cooking show all things because I went around the country, learning how to cook from grandmothers and grandfathers in their kitchens. But by design I created the show I I was there to learn about their lives to cooking was just something to keep us occupied because I find that when people are doing activities, they tend to open up more they’re not self conscious because they don’t, they’re not sitting sitting cross me with cameras trained on them in a formal interview setting. And so, in the pilot episode, I was with a grandmother amazing woman named Ruth Thomas Who as a six year old in Poland had hidden a barn for a year from the Nazis and your sister had been killed bunch of her family had and she survived in this amazing woman, a teacher in Westchester County in New York. And at one moment, she was telling me about what she endured. And then the next morning, we were laughing about kosher laws and how she had to set up her kitchen and what would have happened if there was a click an eclipse in the middle of the Sabbath, blah, blah, blah. So it kind of occurred to me that, you know, she of all people would have had the right to say like, we’re in a serious place right now, but she wanted to laugh. And so I think, um, there’s there’s never a time when humor doesn’t have a role or is is categorically inappropriate. Um, I, you know, I think I tend to prefer more organic humor humor that comes Have a conversation rather than set up punch line. I’m not a stand up comedian. So I can see how telling a joke at certain times, of course, is inappropriate, but I think allowing moments that might be funny to develop in an actual conversation that really never is inappropriate. Right.

 

13:21

Right. And I mean, you know, when, when I was looking at preparing for our discussion today, I thought about the fact that Yeah, and hard times, you know, people need that release valve, they need to be able to laugh, but, you know, I didn’t find this on an ongoing and not just even in hard times, but in your personal hard times, you know, you have I think it’s fascinating that you’ve looked at like death, right? But very serious thing is sometimes the most serious thing that a person might consider in their life. I mean, until they’re dead, but, but you look at death and you You say, yeah, there are some people who had some stories that need to be told need to. There are some things that that need to be revisited. I’m going to honor that. But oh, by the way, this is kind of funny actually. Like what like, let’s take a look at this. And I just want to say in my obituaries, I loved your piece on Laura Branigan. Oh, my gosh, thank you. For anyone listening. You’ll know the song GLORIA You know, I like totally my entire rollerskating career. nine years old was devoted to Laura Branigan. And it’s just what I love is that you’re able to bring that levity, but also that interest to things that people take very seriously. So talk to me about that.

 

14:52

Well, thank you and Laura Branigan, that was on the podcast side, and hopefully it’ll be a sequel book in which case, I’ll have Bring her into it. Um, I, I mean, I want to be able to tell the stories of people that I truly care about that I’m certainly that I’m curious about and hopefully that interests that enthusiasm is contagious. You know, it’s infectious and, and Laura Branigan, it was somebody that my best friend and I grew up listening to a lot. And then she sort of fell off the map. And I thought, I wanted to understand I want to answer that question what had happened to her. And then, posthumously, she kind of became a big deal again, with the St. Louis Blues, the hockey tear. They went from the very last place in the NHL in the 2019 season, to winning the Stanley Cup for the first time in their 50 year history. Once they adopted that song, Gloria that you mentioned as their theme song. So it’s certainly kind of a sort of a kind of Cinderella story, but um, um, I found it very poignant, and I guess I find that Things that are that are oftentimes poignant. There’s there is humor and there’s sweetness in them. I talked to her best friend who I don’t even it’s interesting her, her. I don’t even know that her her high school best friend like who came into interview with me expect it to get to a place where we were laughing about the time she and Laura went into the bathroom at her mother’s trash shop and ended up ripping the sink out of the wall because they were like some one of them was sitting on the wall. And I think when her friend came in to talk to me, I think she thought it was going to be really solemn. And then, but of course, we’re remembering Laura’s life and that led to a lot of joy. I mean, I think I think obituaries are not a good obituary. It’s not about someone’s death. It’s about someone’s life. Yeah, right. It’s a chronicle of someone’s life. I’m not really that interested in how people die. I’m interested in kind of how they look. I should also point out that I went to obit con

 

17:01

No,

 

17:02

listen, let me tell you I was so impressed to see this I had. My secret past is when I was in college, I worked the front desk for the Joplin globe. taking her obituary over the phone.

 

17:16

Wow. Yes, yes. What does that mean to you would show Oh my God, that’s a really, boy, especially for a young person. That’s a really, I like to walk with them.

 

17:27

I was ambitious. I was hungry. I yeah, nothing like oh, well, okay. And so to age myself a little bit. They didn’t just email things over right? This was all by phone. So we’re actually here you know, people, and let me tell you, the funeral home directors who will call and their relationships you can develop with these people and get the real story about every family is fascinating stuff. I bad. So you were listening to the stories as told by funeral directors, but also By relatives, no, by funeral directors most of the time Yeah, at that time we didn’t have the paid the paid.

 

18:10

So, yes, Wow, what

 

18:12

an experience but you you had a lot of off the record moments I’m guessing.

 

18:16

I obviously Yes, yes, a lot of off the record moments and and really touching stories to where people would want to share but when I heard that you had gone to obit con, I thought, you know, now that is something that would be absolutely fascinating because what a group of people right, I mean, they’re hearing about these stories. And and I I know like hearing also the sort of on the side, like a little bit more about the family than what might actually end up in the paper. So how did that go talk to me?

 

18:49

Well, it was really, really First of all, it’s a lot more fun than Comic Con which I find overbearing on these. It’s interesting because the opendesk Used to be kind of a cemetery, if you will. It used to be where people were put out to pasture newspaper writers. And one of them even said, like, yeah, where you put the losers of the trucks. That’s what it used to be for the college kids. Right? Right. And now and now, it’s become, I think, for a variety of reasons, a real desirable place to be if you’re a journalist, and one of the reasons is, as somebody put it, and this was probably always the case, you get, you’re essentially writing for sports, for business for entertainment for politics, depending on who died so and it’s also the most purely narrative form of journalism, you’re telling someone’s life. Um, so the people that were there were, were a, in some cases of quirky bunch of the Southern obit writers you can imagine are amazing. But they love their jobs. I mean, it’s, it’s the the peak is for the most part, they don’t know What’s what their next assignment is going to be? And, and it could be anything. So it’s a pretty exciting job, I think.

 

20:08

Well, so how do you even collect these stories and know like in the beginning, I imagine you’ve probably had a shortlist of Well, there’s this there’s that there’s there are these these stories that I’d like to investigate? But once you start getting on that path Have you been Have you continued to collect them as you’re going along? Is there going to be like a part two?

 

20:31

Well, yes, there’s going to be a third season of the podcast and there’s going to be a second book. So I have been collecting stories names. Um, I, you know, I, my boss at CBS Sunday morning as sort of a master of what we call show mix. Like how to give people a variety. I was the kid that loved the variety pack of cereals growing up. I never like the big box. So I like you know, nope. You like the Cocoa Puffs to Froot Loops, no one likes a special k that gets left behind. But, um, but, um, so I have definitely been collecting stories. And one of the fun things and you sort of alluded to this early on, is I like to take something that seems like it’s gonna be kind of silly, oh, it’s going to be a gas, it’s going to be pretty two dimensional, and find unexpected depth in it. And conversely, I’d like to take something that might make you think, Oh my god, this is going to be like watching paint dry and surprise you by making it interesting. So saying, Give me a little sizzle. It’s all about protein and carbs. Like and making sure that they’re mixed in the right way. Right. And so so I’m, I’m constantly collecting stories and looking at who died and and not just recently but people from the past and from long ago and figuring out combinations. I also Like, finding meaning in pop culture figures that you might just think of as entertaining. And, you know, because their pop culture is really important in America. I mean, it really is. And so, and that may sound really just trivial to put it that way but um, are obvious but um, it’s we watch a lot we consume a lot of media and these figures like Sammy Davis, Jr, you know, have had

 

22:35

are who are also historical figures.

 

22:37

Right. Well, you know, and it’s interesting because people are, just take this year for example, you know, before COVID was was taking place in another country, but it wasn’t like, when Kobe Bryant died, people were just that was that was the news people were consumed with that they still talk About that, and it’s almost like it was the bad omen that like and then COVID came into the country. I mean, for a lot of people. They almost like when we used to look at comments in the past before we had like television or something, you know, they look at at our big, especially when it’s unexpected, these big names, that means so much, and they’re passing seems to have more significance than then, you know, it was just as like, I guess, a normal event that, you know,

 

23:33

the the, the lead writer for The obits at the Washington Post told me that when he first got to The Washington Post, they for the most part only did obits for local figures and political figures. Mm hmm. Because it’s Washington. And he suggested when the actress barney frank Franklin, from one day at a time died, that they would open and his supervisor at the time. So not why would we do that? Like she’s a sitcom actress and she’s not from DC like, why would we do that instead, you know, that show ran like it was like 10 or 11 years. And they finally relented, and he did it. I can’t remember what year it was. Somebody can look up when she died. It was the most circulated obituary that year in the Washington Post. Wow. So

 

24:26

yeah, well, I mean, you know it. And if you’ve ever have you done the exercise, actually, I bet you have Have you done the exercise of writing your own obituary? where like, if you were going to do it, usually when you go through sometime, and you’re if you studied journalism or something like that, somewhere along the way, they asked you to write your own obituary. I didn’t even college and later I had to do this for creative writing thing. And it was sad. It was really sad. I was like, I get busier and do more. Have you ever done that?

 

24:56

Well, Lord knows I haven’t taken any journalism classes. I probably We should have I haven’t I probably in high school did something like that. Um, you know, I definitely worked on the first line of my own bed. But I actually do want to fill out my open a little bit more. It’s a little bit. It’s a little skeletal right now.

 

25:18

I don’t think so. I would beg to differ. Yeah, but I mean, I, you know, I would think about in going through you, you start contemplating? Well, what’s really significant? And I don’t know, I Mo. So, like, that’s a very difficult thing to do. Right.

 

25:36

It is a difficult thing to do. And I will tell you that that was exactly the reason that I created my aforementioned cooking show, because my father had just died. And I thought I, I definitely and I think for many people, certainly for me, it’s one of those moments where you go, Okay, wait a minute, you hit reset, or at least you pause and you go, what do I want my life to add up to? What do I want it to be what I and, and I had this yearning to spend time with people who were at a stage in their lives, where they knew what mattered to them, they can articulate what has shaped their lives, everything else has sort of dropped away. And they said, these are the one or two things that matter to me. And so that was really the thrust of why I went around the country cooking in different senior citizens homes in their kitchens was really to hear them. Talk to me about that what has shaped their lives, and it ended up being quite funny. But um, but yeah,

 

26:39

I love that, you know, when, when I was promoting that we were going to have this discussion. There was a friend of mine from high school, who posted it. I mean, that that was his favorite thing that you did

 

26:50

out of every nine. So that’s

 

26:53

and Do you have plans on doing some more of that? And I see and hear what she’s saying. Yes, yes, yeah. And call the people Food Network and make them wardrobe more. Right. Right. Well, I mean tonight and you know, when you’re looking at some of the things that you have planned coming up, obviously this year has put a lot is changed priorities for people, it’s definitely changed, changed what people had intended for that, that next period of time to look like. And so do you have new projects that you’re planning on? Because you’ve had this time of not? I don’t know. It’s just this weird time that we’re going through.

 

27:39

I I it’s not that I’m withholding anything. I you’re absolutely right, that this is a period to think about. And I’ve been thinking about my work, which is really important to me, and what I want it to mean and then I don’t want to do things that don’t mean much to me so that that’s why I decided to do this period to write another book. And I’ll have to get started on it. Um, but I definitely have things marinating, I find that like, quiet, even wistful times are good to sort of kind of quiet out the voices that are not helpful. And to just kind of get in touch with what you want to say and what you want to do. I think it’s very, there are a lot there, all those other voices telling you what you should be doing, or what other people want you to do or how other people will approve or disapprove. And those voices are very hard to quiet, and that’s the one. I don’t want to say upside. They don’t want to so many people are suffering. I don’t want to be like this has been a really great period for me to think about. But like, that is one

 

28:51

thing that’s happened with this as it’s been like

 

28:55

and just slow the pulse down and then think about What you need like and you know, and also for me, like, don’t work constantly to fill a hole work hard because it’s meaningful, not because it’s avoiding something, which I don’t think it is, but it’s always something that I think to for those of us who like Work, work, work work, it’s important to make sure that it doesn’t just become habitual.

 

29:22

Yeah, and I don’t even think you realize that it’s a habit, you know, something in the association space. And there’s crossover with the events world and I saw Dana was on here earlier, you know, they are road warriors, they spend so much time going from conference to conference holding live events and all of this stuff has really it’s caused people to I mean, to really do sort of a reset whether they wanted to or not, but but to sit still. And I think stick

 

29:51

with yourself right

 

29:52

like with yourself, I mean, and not on a plane and not constantly like going from one place to another but in a way, you know, your shadows had a chance to catch up with itself for a little bit. And now, you know, we’re looking around and we’re saying, Oh my gosh, you know, this is my life and what do I want it to be this way? Exactly.

 

30:12

Yeah. Yep.

 

30:13

It’s it’s it is. I don’t know I that actually. That’s a great segue to this question that I wanted to ask you. And I asked people on the private Facebook group for Association Chat. This was the question of the week. And if you could go back in time and make little changes to your childhood. What is the one thing you learn and master over the years so that you would be an expert at it today?

 

30:44

The thing that I’ve learned to master Yeah, so So um,

 

30:49

yes. I

 

30:59

you know, I’m going to say this, but I’m going to add a caveat afterwards. I wish I had played team sports, at least for a time. Because I think it gives you a, it seems to me that it gives you in some tools for collaborating, mutual support, you know, taking the initiative and then sometimes letting somebody else take the initiative. And maybe I’m idealizing it but I can’t change the person that I was. So that’s like, and for, you know, all sorts of complicated reasons. I probably it wasn’t, I wasn’t, that wasn’t something that I wanted to do, but I definitely see what the value is in it. I’m glad I definitely did theater because it’s its own kind of obviously there’s a lot of collaboration

 

32:01

So yeah, I think but probably I would have wanted

 

32:06

maybe I guess to be in more proof activities, I don’t have a lot about my childhood that I control that I would change. I’m definitely glad that I had a lot of free time. A lot. That was that was weirdly creative. You know, I, I was not over scheduled and I’m and I’m glad I wasn’t because I think that time was really important. Whether I was lying on my stomach paging through the World Book encyclopedia, the 1974 World Book encyclopedia, because I was so attached to it. Even watching a lot of junky TV, I don’t. Yeah, I’m not sure that I read that. Um, so I think a lot of that free form. Time was good for me. Yeah,

 

32:58

yeah. So It’s so fascinating because I think no one really expected to no one really expected to have, especially after we just kept going, going, going going so fast after getting more and more technology to help us stay connected and pagers, and then cell phones and all the stuff and just never turning off. And then we were forced to stay in one place for the first time for many of us for like, ever since we were kids, you know?

 

33:31

Yeah, the one thing I would add to that though is because people are burning up the internet, right? Aren’t they more than ever before? I went on a short little vacation and I I love Liz I remember worldbloxer passed so much better than tanika so much better the Botanica is, is I took I don’t really do social media. I have a Twitter account, but I deleted it. For a week, and I’ll tell you it really does. I felt my brain I like almost have like a physiological change. Well, I think that I can only speak for myself, but I think that social media can be a real distortion field. And yeah, um, and getting off of that I really felt happier for for I only did it for about a week, and I’m only to kind of glancingly back on but it’s, it’s pretty great. You should try it. People should try it if they haven’t.

 

34:42

You know, it’s so it’s, I believe you. I believe you and i think i think it’s, it’s so insidious, because and here, you know, we’re talking about Association Chat. I mean, a lot of activity happens in a private Facebook group, right? And so there’s the social media part of it, but it’s all this other stuff and you never just, it’s like a potato chip. You never eat just one. You go you visit thing. And it’s this endless scrolling. And it’s, it’s designed to be this way to, like, get as trapped in it, but how much more creative? How much happier would we be if we weren’t constantly, you know, plugging into social media? I don’t know.

 

35:29

libo definitely both happier and more creative. Yeah, I’m convinced of it.

 

35:34

So and Nick Parker says yes, world books were Yeah, so much greater than Britannica.

 

35:40

Yeah, I think that for tanika I don’t mean to be seen a phobic but for tanika like a soap reader. She, I mean, like, even though it’s called World Book, it was like, it was like, the red, white and blue. It’s World Book. It’s American. I’m all about the world. Okay, Dana, right is saying team sports, especially about are crucial for girls and young women. I think exactly for those reasons, I think. Great, really interesting point. Yeah.

 

36:05

Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, it is fascinating about about the role that I think we’re all kind of reexamining the role that things like social media and technology and I had this index card mo behind my front door. That was a family goal for the year. That was that we would sit down as a family. As a family. I have a daughter, who’s 12. And my husband, we sit down as a family once a week, to aim for once a week for dinner together. Once a week, that’s so tragic. That’s when that was a goal. That was a goal because I was always on the road. My daughter was always going to dance and acting classes and all this stuff. And it’s like, you know, we’re so we’re doing we have dinner, like every night, you know,

 

36:58

Oh, all right. So The goal was once a week before the pandemic, and

 

37:03

I’m sorry, I didn’t give you that. Yes. What was the goal at the beginning of the year? And then, since all of this happened, we’ve all been in one spot, you know, travels not happening. And you know, she’s doing stuff for classes by zoom. And, and we have dinner, every dinner together. It’s so crazy. And I look back at that. And I think, wow, I don’t really want to go back to a place where I couldn’t have dinner with my family more, more than once a week, you know?

 

37:35

Well, there was a I can’t remember his name smart guy, Professor of Marketing at NYU that I interviewed for, for a piece I did on Sunday morning on the new normal and what that’s going to mean, and he said that there will come a time sooner than we realize where people will be nostalgic for aspects of pandemic life. Mm hmm. Which is kind of kooky, right? It’s weird. I look to my mother. lives right upstairs for me, and I love knocking on the road and actually being able to visit with her and watch the third season of the crown with her and thinking of starting that Indian matchmaking show on Netflix. Is it good? It looks like it’s good. I haven’t seen it. That does sound good, though. I think that show like I feel like it. So if any of the people watching now can weigh in on Indian matchmaking, that Netflix show, I think it’s a big hit. So I

 

38:27

absolutely read saying social media is part of the productivity for many. And yes,

 

38:36

right, Judy? well read. I’m not I know that social media is part of productivity. I should have qualified it by saying social media just just sort of like you’d like an addict. Just see what other people are saying what other people are saying like, like, I don’t think you learn that much about presidential politics, from from social media, but I realized if it’s part of your job, I’m not stopping on that. Hester says that I will love We will love Indian matching thank you so much

 

39:06

had something to say beforehand about Title Nine which is

 

39:10

yes to be said that and also Liz earlier she had my dad had a full set of both we’re going back you guys we are appreciating I think maybe that’s what we need to do once there’s once there’s no more sheltering in place I just need to go back and it’ll be sort of a throwback kind of thing and start selling sets of encyclopedias again because clearly we need this

 

39:33

we should you should get into selling encyclopedias. Yeah, I can’t remember I was like five years old a woman who came to our door she didn’t actually come carrying like a child

 

39:43

but um, listen to interesting that your father how to shut it but I wonder if he was testing you in some way.

 

39:50

I know. And I went who I do wonder what a fascinating Oh,

 

39:54

and when you’re turning test, Are you really my trial. Love the imagery of my shadow. I agree with that. Kiki shadow catching up with yourself is so great. I want to steal it from you. So once you tell me who you stole it from first

 

40:08

thing I do know that I don’t know like the Native Americans. I have no idea.

 

40:12

Great, great.

 

40:14

No. Yeah, really interesting thing that at this time I don’t race in the static for it and it’s not even gone I just think it’s so unusual to be living through it that you know, it’s like observing it but also living through it is a strange it’s a very strange thing. But I do think that it’s causing a lot of people to just rethink the direction that they’re on. And I I have to imagine that that’s also part of why this is this is taking it down this more serious path. But I also have to imagine that that might be why a lot of these discussions that

 

40:57

have been going on for a long long time like this sessions about,

 

41:02

you know, Black Lives Matter and things like that. I wonder if that’s not helping to bring more of a greater focus to it because people are sitting with themselves. They’re they’re taking time to think about it. That’s not right. You know, like I have a problem. I can’t we have time to actually sit and get upset about things instead of being too busy to actually pay attention to things that we think we don’t have control over. That’s interesting. I’m

 

41:30

sure. I’m wondering if there’s a way to measure. It’s, it would be hard to But yeah, I think it seems to me with fewer commutes, although people do we’re listening to say Public Radio more with their commutes. But if people have more time to think about big issues, you know, because isn’t it true that like, ordinarily, in a presidential election, people pay attention the last few essentially the last few minutes? No Oh my god. Mike’s uncle is a salesman for Willowbrook in rural Iowa. I know I know do you sell a lot? I mean I’m wondering what went into being a really good World Book encyclopedia salesperson,

 

42:12

you know that they had to have like the best conversations and also PS did the salespeople like did they get like a heads up like really feature this part of the book or like this story or feel out that family that you’re talking to and see what subjects they might be the most interested in? I mean, we were totally like

 

42:31

profile them like like yeah, definitely in Iowa bring like the C volume for corn. That’s how you’re gonna let them

 

42:40

know or don’t because they’ll know what’s missing. Right? Like an eye they’d be like, Oh, no, they waiting the right way. They’re not describing it the right way. That’s

 

42:49

actually that’s a great point. Yeah. And she also has combine count makes it nice. Cal Newport makes a good case for cutting back eliminating social media work social media. Book deep work. I mean, again, yeah, I don’t look, I use social media occasionally I’ve used it to find a way to find story topics. I just I don’t know, I think it’s a distortion field and I and I’ve actually gone down some wrong tracks by telling myself, everyone’s talking about x, or everyone thinks y. And it’s like, That’s not true. That’s not true. You were led to believe that because of this crazy, intense bubble that you’re in on social media, just just saying, babies person. It’s a little tricky,

 

43:33

but I know Do I dare ask you then the question about Okay, so where do you go to now with media, so many people are feeling jaded about the media. And that’s a very difficult road to go down because there is a lot of truth to the fact that they’re trying to provide entertainment, you’re trying to provide something that will be of interest to to everyone But at what point does it become? I don’t know, damaging and what point do we have to take responsibility for like the stuff that we’re we’re sharing and saying this is is this guiding? Is this guiding discussion or representing things accurately? Wouldn’t that mean as journalists

 

44:18

as a journalist? Yeah. I mean, look, I don’t do. I’m not a political reporter. So, you know, I’m as likely to be I’m doing a piece on statues right now. Okay, on the statues, controversy. And so I ended up reading history books, and which is great for me because I feel like I’m being paid to become educated. So I don’t know what I do if I were covering politics, what I’d simply supplement my real reporting my real old fashioned reporting with but my immediate diet is really boring. And unimaginative for the newspapers do the Wall Street Journal in the New York Times I, I mean, and I that’s I wish I could say it was something I liked the Atlantic also as a magazine. Um, you know, but perhaps I could be not only more more creative in my choices, but, but a little more circumspect about what I’m reading I tend to believe that if you’re working for one if I’m reading a news report and one of the biggest stablishment Press Oregon’s a generally trust it or not.

 

45:33

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that I, I think that the journalists who I’ve known and and connected with, you know, they’re all trying to do a really good job. They’re trying to they’re trying to communicate effectively, and it’s not some sort of hidden cabal, where they’re like, on gathering together.

 

45:54

I mean, the reporters I know are most are well intentioned. It’s hard though because yeah. It’s impossible not to bring your own experience and your own perspective. Mike’s father could talk but anything. He was a history teacher and a huge baseball fan. Awesome.

 

46:10

Right. Wow. There you go. And we also have Eric was saying this is a new direction. But I’m curious. You have a great show on Saturday mornings on the Ford museum. Can you share thoughts on engineers and their impact going forward and post COVID?

 

46:26

Thank you, Eric. So I host a show called the Henry Ford’s innovation nation. It’s out of the spectacular Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan museum. And this is somebody who grew up in the Washington area with the Smithsonian. I feel perfectly confident saying that the Henry Ford is every bit as amazing as the Smithsonian museums are and is world class. And it’s a it’s it’s a show that’s both a history of innovators, but also looks at current day innovators. It’s I think, I’ve never I’m proud of the show, I think it’s important because in a digital universe,

 

47:06

it’s not always apparent.

 

47:11

Because you can’t see the inner workings say, of an iPhone, right? You can’t see digital technology in the way that you could see mechanical technology. And so people don’t always appreciate the amazing ingenuity of our innovators. It also happens so quickly now that it’s hard to keep up with it. But, you know, I definitely because of my role on the show. think more about the importance of these people of scientists and engineers, and how they can hopefully get us out of the messes we create before they consume us completely. I mean, you know, It’s so so that’s something I’m comfortable. I’m trying to remember exactly what his question was what Eric’s question was? Yeah,

 

48:06

he was talking about? Sure.

 

48:11

So, I mean, I’m not the first to say it. I mean, hopefully coming out of this, and hopefully we will be out of this, this pandemic. Soon. I’m a scientists and engineers will be even more valued. It’s important for issues of diversity as well, little girls, children of color. All can be innovators. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Look, this comes up with obituaries as well. I mean, Mark, elite Fox, great. obituary writer for The New York Times, somebody said, Oh, The New York Times. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. It says in New York Times only, you know, features all old, you know, white men in their obituaries, um, you know, that’s the vast majority. And she said, Look, we can’t change history, we can’t change who had opportunity. You know who did these things? That’s what happened. But luckily, that’s rapidly changing and, and it should I mean, of course it should. So I hope I hope that the show is an inspiration to to young girls, young girls of color to all young people.

 

49:21

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I need you We need you

 

49:27

to save us

 

49:29

see, I have to say that I I want to grab this and hold us up for everybody to see because not only not only do we have our guests here featured prominently on the cover of mo Vich Mary’s, but you guys, there’s a lot in here. This is a nice, heavy, beautiful, well crafted tome my.

 

49:51

I didn’t want you to feel ripped off.

 

49:53

I did. I don’t feel ripped off. I feel like I got my money’s worth. It’s really great. There’s color on the page. As you guys, it’s not as black and white. Yeah. So I mean, when you were putting this together, I know that that it was inspired by a lot of the stories that were pulled together and collected on the podcast. But it actually went beyond just that. And so talk to me about what made what were the decisions that went into crafting the book and why and why is it different than what, you know, just sort of sharing the stuff, the stories that are included in the podcast, because you have interesting things here, like when people died the same day and, you know, I mean, all kinds of stuff. So.

 

50:41

So about 30% of the book is topics that were also on the podcast, though treated differently. There. I am. And I want to give credit to my wonderful co author Jonathan Greenberg. We wanted with the, with the book, to tell obviously many more stories. A lot of stories are not suited to audio, and vice versa. So and they belong on the page. Oh, thank you, Judy TV Sanford guys says it’s informative and enjoyable. Thank you. Um, and so, um, the stories that took place from before sound technology are kind of hard to pull off on a podcast, because there’s no archival to draw from. But on the page, there was a, there was an opportunity to be a lot more creative. So there’s the death of dragons, which is really about the death of the belief in dragons. Carl Linnaeus who I remembered from AP bio was a Swedish botanist in the 18th century, who went in the 1730s to in an exhibit in Hamburg. This very very popular hot exhibit of a seven headed Hydra and he went in there and realize this is a ruse, this is fake. This is a bunch of, of snake skin. So Together with weasel skulls shoved in, and just like that, in pretty short order, I should say. This millennia has long, millennia long belief in dragons went away, because he managed to prove that this was a fake, and that no creature has more than one head. So that was the kind of story that certainly never gotten obituary, the depth of the belief in dragons, but seemed like something that would be fun for the book. I mean, I wanted the book to be informative, and I want it and I want it to be fun. Even more so than informative, but also to be about things that grabbed me, I found in my career, that if I’m interested in something, and I present it well enough, I can get you interested in and it’s especially satisfying if it’s something you didn’t expect to be interested To them, that’s always I feel like I’ve achieved something if I can make you interested in something you didn’t expect to be interested in.

 

53:07

So that that actually brings me to my next question, which is, you know, again, when you’re going through what what makes the cut, you know, like, there are so many different things you could you could write about and that have passed on ideas, you know, technologies and and people.

 

53:30

How do you decide what makes the cut?

 

53:33

I mean,

 

53:35

it’s got to genuinely grab me and some of these were topics that I was only curious about, that I didn’t really know much about. But that was important to me at this stage in my career, that these are things that I kind of really owned in many cases felt a personal attachment to, but also things that I felt didn’t get the sendoff they deserve the first time or any sent off at all. There’s this collection of figures called forgotten For runners, sort of the pioneers before the pioneers, a woman named Elizabeth Jennings, an African American woman, who almost 100 years before rosa parks in 1854, was kicked off of a streetcar, a horse drawn streetcar in New York. And she sued. And she won. And it led if she wanted simple coordinate lead to the integration of New York’s transportation system, shortly after the Civil War, and that was an astonishing story to me. Even more astonishing that people didn’t know it. I found it enough in a presidential trivia book because her lawyer was a young Chester Allen Arthur, who would go on to be our 21st president. But I thought how odd that I’m finding out about this story in a presidential trivia book, you know. So, you know, and like I said, protein and carbs, I wanted to combine some things that were a little more substantive was stuff that was a little fuzzier, like the death of sitcom characters, also known as the chuck cutting in syndrome. Richie Cunningham on happy days for the first two seasons have an older brother. But the Fonz became so popular that Gary Marshall, the creator of the show, decided to

 

55:13

to vaporize and basically,

 

55:15

he just disappeared. I like I didn’t even remember that I like I didn’t remember and I think I

 

55:21

watched all the reruns growing up, but somehow it just, yeah. He wasn’t he wasn’t much of a character.

 

55:28

But he if he was generally eating a sandwich or dribbling a basketball, I love the interesting stories. It’s surprising. They’re interesting laugh aloud, that being curious factors. We love watching your peace of mind. Thank you so much, Amy, Amy Hagar. That’s very nice. I like that and, you know, and again, stuff can be more serious, like the black congressman of reconstruction who are totally amazing figures or they can be lighter, but still have meaning.

 

55:59

Okay. So I’ve got two questions for you. This one is about

 

56:06

creative projects, jobs, like what’s the job that you’ve loved the most and why? And

 

56:16

what would you like to do more of?

 

56:20

Well, one of the jobs I love the most, that over time

 

56:26

has become more important to me was I was a writer on a TV show called a wishbone, which was a PBS TV show about a dog who in his Fantasy Life, becomes the heroes of classic novels. He was on PBS in the mid 90s. And that, for me was a really important job. It’s where I learned to write basically, and tell a story because we had to take some of the greatest novels stories ever told, and distilled them into half hours for kids. through the eyes of a dog. It was like Really kind of wacky when you think about it, but it was good hard work. Um, so I’ve loved that I’ve loved a lot of the different shows that I’ve done. I’m a, I love doing Wait, wait, don’t tell me, which is, you’re so good on that. Oh, thank you. It’s a lot of fun. It’s a great, it’s a great show to do. And I’d love to do more stage performance. I was on Broadway and the 25th annual Putnam County spelling bee. And I’d love to do more of that. I love live performance. And if anything, I’d love to figure out how I can do what I do on TV on stage or capture the essence of that. Because a live audience is really exciting.

 

57:43

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So more of that, please. We’re putting that out into the universe and anyone listening. That’s where mo that’s, that’s in his wheelhouse and what he’s looking for more of Yes. Okay. So Final question, what would you want? And then this sounds mccobb. But guys understand that like, we’re talking about obituaries here. So I feel like it’s I’m not out of place and asking this but totally fine. What would you want to be written on your gravestone if you’re gonna have a gravestone?

 

58:19

Well, for my gravestone, I’d want to keep it really clean and simple. So just no Mo.

 

58:26

So I think that’s it. And then for the first line for the first line of my opet.

 

58:34

I would like to read mo Rocca comma, who made other people interested in things that they didn’t expect to be interested in, comma die today period. He was 135.

 

58:47

In dictation, that’s fantastic. I love how you’ve just put all of that in there. That’s wonderful.

 

58:52

It’s that first sentence in that clause. That’s that’s the key that’s all in

 

58:57

and you have to make sure it’s delivered and you Just the right way. So Sam says go Kiki como Mo, you are a prolific and insightful writer. How do you get in sync of flow where the words are coming so fast? Your fingers can’t keep up?

 

59:13

Well, I wish I wish I got into that state more often. I think. I think honestly, a key is shutting everything out. So I don’t think it’s possible otherwise. And it’s not easy to get into that state. Um, but when I was when I was writing the book, I had to, I had to, I was pretty strict with myself that I think I did all my emails and everything by 930. And then I didn’t look at anything until 630. Wow.

 

59:45

Okay. And Nick says no mo or Oh, bit con, over Comic Con not sure which line is my favorite from today? I know I have to say fantastic. No, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. And I think that if, you know, learning about humor during times of adversity, we talked about so much more than that. We talked about I guess watching wishbone episodes might be one thing that we could do to embrace humor during times of adversity. But I just have to say thank you for the good work that you’re doing. And I look forward to seeing so much more.

 

1:00:21

Thank you very much. KiKi, this has been a blast. I really like talking to you.

 

1:00:25

All right. Thank you. So that’s it, everyone. I hope you enjoyed the show today. I really really enjoyed my time with mo Rocca. And until next time, everyone keep learning every day. As Joseph Campbell once said the cave you fear to enter. holds the treasure you seek. Have a great week, everyone

 

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