How to Strengthen Your Association’s Value Proposition

Is your association’s value proposition as strong as it could be?

Are your governance, operations, and culture aligned to support strategy? Join Association Chat CEO and Tecker International senior consultant KiKi L’Italien as she shares the connection between community, content, and culture and how to use these elements to fortify your association’s value proposition to members.

In this episode, KiKi shares real-world examples of how other associations have improved everything from meeting attendance to online community by strengthening their value proposition.

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How to Strengthen Your Association’s Value Proposition

Wed, 9/22 12:22PM • 45:38

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

associations, people, association, members, value proposition, provide, questions, organization, community, book, Hilary Marsh, talk, content, bruce rosenthal, association executives, membership, important, customer, thinking, create

SPEAKERS

KiKi L’Italien

KiKi L’Italien  00:21

Well, hello there everyone, you know, I’m used to starting off with Association Chat graphics and Association Chat News. But this time, it’s different. This time, instead of welcoming you to Association Chat or welcoming you to a guest that I’m going to interview, I’m actually presenting something on behalf of Tecker International, many of you know that I wear many different many, many different hats, right. But I also serve as a senior consultant for Tecker International. And today’s topic is, is actually really, really important all the time. If you’re an association, you need to be thinking about this all the time. But especially over the past year and a half, I think that the topic of the value proposition, what kind of value you are providing to your members and to your stakeholders, has become something that has become even more important, right.

I’m going to approach this discussion as a sort of discussion, less than a webinar.

Yesterday, I had the good fortune to be able to speak to a group about specifically about the value proposition I was talking about understanding engaging and satisfying members and customers. And this was created for the healthcare associations leadership league. And it was a wonderful program, you know, we had a great, it was an hour and a half. And we were talking primarily about value proposition. And the thing that just kept coming up is how important it is to be curious about your members, and about your stakeholders and about your mission. Because in a time of uncertainty, which we are certainly in. People have a lot of questions, they ask a lot of questions. And they, even if they’ve been committed to your organization in the past, they want to reassess and figure out is it actually meeting serving the purpose that they initially wanting to to serve, meeting their needs, as they initially saw them, is the ROI on their time and their energy and their money? Really there.

So today, that’s what we’re going to talk about I, a few of you reached out to ask me how to log into this, I see that several of you are logged in, you know, unable to watch. So if you’re at YouTube, you should be able to go ahead and comment as we go along. If anyone feels like they want to jump on, what I would like to do is approach this in a way that we can talk for the first like 30 minutes about the value proposition, what it is, how it’s changed things, we need to think about as far as you know, what our members might be expecting. And then we’ll move into if anyone wants to jump on with me, I can share the link, and you can log on in a little bit. Bruce says this is important, this is an important topic, there is a lot of competition for the attention of members and prospective members. Bruce, you’re absolutely correct. And actually, there’s a lot of competition for all of our attention right now, especially as more of us find ourselves inside logging in, there are 1,000,001 things to even, you know, view and learn and discuss when we’re looking at our virtual options as well. So, you know, maybe in the beginning when we were thinking that we needed to find a replacement for in person in person meetings so that we could create more community and create more learning opportunities for folks. If we got to the point where we could create a virtual or even a hybrid option.

Now it’s how are we going to compete continue to compete as everyone gets into the game and they get over the learning curve and they begin to find all of these new tools that new price points that make it a lot more accessible to more people. So I have an answer for that. I don’t know if it’s the right answer, but I think it’s a good answer. Because associations are weird. I mean, that’s the one thing that whenever my colleagues and I are talking about, you know, associations, one thing we can pride ourselves on as associations is that we’re just weird, right?

We’re weird because we’re set up unlike any other organization that’s out there.

And then a lot of times what’s highlighted is that associations are risk-averse, and they’re unwieldy. And it’s very difficult to maneuver and innovate the way that we want to. And in recent history, up until COVID, you know, that was kind of the big, the big push was innovation design thinking, let’s think about how we can be at the forefront of our industries or organ for our organizations for our associations. And these are valuable, valiant efforts to be doing that.

At a time like the present when we are suddenly thrust into this position where it’s more about who can I trust? Is this going to be a reliable organization? Do I actually believe in what this organization is doing? What are they doing for me? Is this an alignment with my own values and what it is that I was hoping to get from this organization in the in the first place? And do I actually feel like I’m part of something that’s bigger than myself, these are some of the key components that can fit into a member’s thinking about why they belong to the organizations to the associations that they do. So one thing I wanted to do is I want to go ahead and bring up something from book that I don’t want to call it a call it an oldie but a goodie. But I’m going to reference several, several materials, several books today, and one of them is the will to govern well.

Okay, so I had to bring, I had to bring up the will to govern well, because not just because it’s a book that several of my colleagues at Tecker International wrote. But also because it does have this really great explanation of what you know, in approach to the value proposition. And there are the three C’s, this is sort of the idea behind the value proposition for an association today.

And the first has to do with commitment, that commitment is often the thing that separates associations from other types of other types of organizations, the commitment to the mission, the commitment to something that will lead to improvements over time, that a group of people have collectively decided that they want to work towards together, that is unique, that is different. And that is something that associations are able to provide in a way that you don’t often see in for profits, and that you don’t often see elsewhere. So that’s one of those special things that that can make an association weird along with the stakeholders, you know, the the the board and the members and the customers, all being part of the same organization.

But that commitment piece is so important, you know, when we divide up and look at the value proposition, and we think, okay, in which area Can I can I look for improvements for my association?

Certainly figuring out is my association tied to the mission and communicating that canoe, the mission, the best way that it could? And by the way, has that mission changed in the time since so many changes have happened in the world? Now, most of the time, we would say no, the mission hasn’t changed because the mission is the mission organization exists. However, the one caveat is in times of extreme change, societal change.

We are living in an age where we are facing change on a personal level on our members are all having to make personal decisions and changes in their own lives. And also at a social level. And on the world stage.

You know, how we collaborate and work with each other and meet and do things. There are a lot of changes that are happening right now. And So you’re all familiar with that we’re trying to navigate that. But that’s all to say that it comes back to looking at commitment and saying, you know, are we still connected to our mission? Are we communicating about that connection? has our mission changed? Do we need to ask those questions? And what do our members think about that? Are we communicating about that mission, that commitment that our organization has, in an effective way? Are we showing how we’ve been there over time, and that’s a really important key.

The second piece of the value proposition is “content” – but not content as in the newsletter and your marketing-speak and all of this stuff, your marketing materials, necessarily, it’s divided up into things like advocacy, it’s those tangibles that it’s it’s the ROI that someone can usually provide to say, this is why I belong to this organization.

It may not be the heart, but it is a logical why.

And that’s because there’s research knowledge, insight, information that puts you at the forefront of your career, your industry that helps you to move forward. Advocacy falls into this to which advocacy is so often the unsung hero, but advocacy has most definitely been the hero for associations during a time when a lot of a lot of the value that comes from an association is in these different industries, organizations associations fighting for them on Capitol Hill. Oh, yes. And Hillary says, I’m going to throw this on here. Yes, that is content. I like to say that content is how our work is manifested in the world. Yes. And Hillary Marsh is my favorite content strategist in the world. So that actually, I should have left that up there longer. I absolutely adore Hillary and I think she’s brilliant. So thank you for that Hillary. So content is really important evaluating in the value proposition? How are you providing value through your content and has have those needs changed? This is obviously a great time for cutting out maybe legacy programs and products that have outlived their usefulness. If you ever needed an argument for cutting it out, you know it, here it is. But the other thing we need to think about is, are we listening to our members? are we listening to our customers about what it is that their needs are now and how they’ve changed and being able to adapt to that and pull ourselves together as Association executives so that we can provide that to our Association members. That is critical.

The third piece is talking about community.

Alright, so with community, obviously, online communities a big deal to me, but but with community, that’s one of those things where we think about when people say it’s the people that you meet in an association, is when I go to the annual meeting, I make those connections, and that’s when I might get my next job. That’s where I meet my peers. That’s where I meet my colleagues. And I’m able to, you know, sort of grow in, in my career, because I’m around other people who can be beneficial to me in one way or another. And we’re all in this together, we’re all we’re all belonging to something that’s bigger than ourselves. And that’s feeding into that, that very human desire to belong to something that’s bigger than yourself. Now, community community is an area that is getting a lot of attention. And it’s also a word that I think is, is being thrust upon everyone. Whether it’s related to events or it’s related the online community and with good reason. Because when associations could no longer easily or safely bring people together in person, for say, an annual meeting or or trade show, then the question became, how are we going to foster those really important relationships when someone maybe belong to the association, just so they could have that yearly? meeting where they could touch base meet people build those contacts that were so critical to their, to their careers, to their jobs to their sales, all of that, and for Association executives who, you know, maybe found that their associations were wanting, and not providing as much and I’m gonna stop sharing my screen because I think it’s slowing down my my video here. For those Association executives who maybe saw that the community piece of things was wanting when the in person events went away, there is a lot, there’s a lot of grasping to try to figure out how can we cultivate those relationships throughout the year, when people are not able to meet in person necessarily. There are also these expectations from a lot of people, a lot of members who may be found that they were able to quickly find new places online to get information and connect with other people. And they’re now looking at their association saying, Why can’t you do this for me? I’m expecting you to do this for me, how are you connecting me to other people better? The people I want to connect with, through the association. This is some of what I’ve been hearing from different Association executives, different people in the industry, certainly from the events side, but then also people who are just trying to figure out, you know, how do we make membership mean something and and have it be valuable for for our members when we’ve taken away a key component that they thought was of extreme value to them. And so Bruce, actually, who’s on here, and I’m going to bring up Bruce’s name and his previous his previous comment, Bruce did wonderful 21 and 21. Talk about how you can get value from sponsorships through your events or provide value to sponsors through events, you will have to go on to Association Chat and look at the playlist for 21 and 21 talks. And listen to Bruce’s talk. He did an amazing job and really provide some valuable information there. But yeah, so. So as you’re looking at community as your third, you know, component of the value proposition. You have to ask yourself, okay, how are we connecting our members to each other, not just to us, not just to the headquarters, not just to the association, not, but how are we helping them connect with each other. And that is hard. That is hard work. It’s much easier to throw people in a room with coffee or cocktails and say, have at it. Good luck. Don’t be scared, you know, fight your imposter syndrome and carry business cards than it is to say, Okay, we have this group of people who are all interested in being connected for one reason or another. How are we going to connect them? If they can no longer be in the same room together? We have digital tools. But as we’ve all seen, those can be used to greater or lesser effect and effectiveness. And so how can we use those in a way that’s actually going to be meaningful to people? That’s a challenge. Alright, so Nick hair, I’m gonna bring this up. Nick hair says this conversation makes me think of the similarities to higher education and Ryan Craig’s book college disrupted the great unbundling of higher education. You know, it’s interesting, Nick, when Nick hair from cue career, you should definitely connect with him if you haven’t already. look him up. All of these people who are commenting our artist of really phenomenal people and good contacts to have in this is an antiquated reference in your Rolodexes contact list. So yeah, next point is is well received here because yeah, higher education. I listened to someone from MIT recently. a statistician giving some information to the international hoteliers societies, Society of hoteliers, something like that. Um, when I was speaking in Boston, and they you know, they’re there quite a bit That there are changes afoot and in destinations and in the way people travel. And one of the interesting side notes that that statistician shared was that at MIT, where he also teaches that they were experiencing changes in higher education that, you know, weren’t going to go back that people, there is this expectation that there’s going to be less travel for the people who are actually part of MIT that teach there. But also that there have to be, you know, better offerings, and probably priced differently for people who are participating online, or at least they need to be able to change the pricing and connection to, to what they’re offering as far as education. So there’s so many changes, higher education, fascinating thing. So, so we’ve gotten through the three C’s of the value proposition. I’m so used to asking other people questions, and then being quiet that it’s strange to talk to this particular group and and to continue to go on. But I promise I won’t wear you out. I said, I talked for about 30 minutes. And then if anyone wants to join me, you can. So all of these things that go into the value proposition, when you’re looking at the commitment and the content. And when you’re looking at community, all of these things go into making this overall brand of what the experience with the experience with that organization is and so your association that’s providing this experience is providing this value probably in one of those areas, is looking at this tension, you know, where can we improve? What are the expectations here, something has to change. If you’re not feeling that, then kudos to you, because that’s unusual. But also I’d say, if you’re not feeling that and you’re listening to this, then you’re already doing something right. And that’s continuing to learn and be curious. So ultimately, that Curiosity has to be there so that you are looking into what your members are looking for. Through qualitative and quantitative research, yes, talk with Hillary more about that. And through figuring out how to design offerings that actually provide greater value. Now, I promised in my write up, and I didn’t promote this very much. And I was explaining to a couple of people why I didn’t, which is I kind of want this to be low key, just in case, it was just me talking to myself that I was going to record it and then and then push push it out later. But a couple of the examples that I said I was going to share I wanted to share with you today because I think that they’re they’re really good. And the first is, you know, when we look at ways that organizations can improve upon their value propositions and see change, see how it positively impacts their memberships. I’m always on the lookout, whether it’s through Association Chat, or through the groups that I talked to for examples, you know, what are examples of associations that have modified one aspect or another of their value proposition? And it’s really had a good impact. And I specifically want to know, who is out there, what associations are out there that have done this during COVID? In a time when there’s this question of, you know, what does engagement mean? You know, are they really finding value in the organization? Or is all of this engagement superfluous and not really providing long lasting proof of long lasting value and membership and retention and all of these things that we really want from our, from our members? want them to experience? So one of those examples, AC HP, I wrote about the alliance of community health plans, okay. The Alliance of community health plans, share shared that the piece that they were able to work on and and have a positive truly positive impact. And I think a lot of associations can benefit from hearing this part is that they had an online community. But the activity has greatly increased since during COVID they needed to have a place that was their own that was owned by them, that was able to provide value to the members where the members knew that they could go and get the most up to date information, and have the most up to date conversations about COVID related research and, and news that they needed to, to learn and talk about and really sort of use that information to figure out how they were going to apply it. And so that’s the alliance of community health plans, a CHP that did that. And it was that ability. And I asked the question, point blank, you know, did this mean that it improved your online community, because a lot of us associations have online communities. But you know, maybe they’re active, maybe they’re not, you know, for an association to be trusted during a time where there is great distrust, and to be able to provide a safe place where you can get reliable information quickly, and to connect with other people who have the same types of interests and concerns and problems that you do. And to know that that organization is doing that for you as a member, and bringing people together. That is the best example of offering value through community during a time when people can’t get together in person. But it’s a great example for right, it’s one of the best examples that I’ve heard, because it was able to provide new value that hadn’t been there before, maybe they had the value to a lesser extent. But it was this specific area that they could go to go to, to talk about the COVID related issues. That was locked down to members only that provided the greatest value to that membership. So that’s a really good example of how an association has adapted and been able to provide something that’s been a value to their membership. Another thing, another example, the National pace Association, the National pace Association, shared with me that they’ve been nimble with content, in that what they were able to do was they were able to, and they went ahead, and they immediately jumped into doing the research stuff. They called up members, and they talked with them about what their needs were. And what the person from the pace, the National pace Association said, was that he said, if we hadn’t reached out to them and had those conversations, and if we weren’t so small, maybe we wouldn’t have been able to be nimble enough to be able to change quickly and be able to offer up new types of materials. And for them what that meant was that meant developing new types of newsletters and reporting on new new information that their members specifically wanted, that they weren’t concerned about before. That wasn’t really on their radar before, at least not to that extent. And those are just a couple of examples where it’s looking at both the one or the other, the content, the community, pieces of the value proposition where those associations were able to then you know, up their game and provide greater value. And apparently, that has meant true engagement, greater engagement with their members and greater retention, which is what everyone’s really, you know, I think after the what do we do about the annual meeting question is then like, also, how do we retain our members because we need to provide value. So being able to do that has definitely been helpful for them. So I’m talking your ears off, I know, does anyone have an interest in trying to jump on with me? So I’m going to share a little bit more as as I’m going along. I don’t want to take up too much of your time. But what I want to do and I’m going to put the information about if you want to join me or talk with me in the chat here. I know that this is different than you know, like a typical sort of webinar. But you know what? I think it’s better this way, because we can we can talk and interact. And if you have any questions you can you can just put them in there. The important thing about talking about the value proposition is that we need to be asking those questions, we need to be looking at how we as associations can only grow in our weirdness by standing apart from all of the competition that we have online. Through for profits, all of these organizations have suddenly figured out oh, you know, we can provide learning online learning, we can provide connection through these private, private networking groups. What do associations have? That’s different than that? Why? Why should we stand apart? Well, we have that commitment piece, we have that commitment to solving a problem over time. We also, by the way, not for nothing are supposed to be working at something that’s supposed to be of public good, like their whole reason that we’re supposed to be able to have, as an association, this this tax debt special tax status is that we’re doing something that the government can’t do for themselves, right? And so so how are we making things better? How are we committed to a mission that people can believe in, ah, believe in over time, that’s, that’s not insignificant, you know, um, I think maybe the old idea of it just being a, you know, have a firm handshake and meet someone face to face. And this, we’re going to, you know, this is what society expects us to do, that may be passed. But the idea of coming together to solve a problem certainly isn’t. And the goal of having an association, solving big problems for the world, for the country for and for the industry, there is still a great need for that. And that is why we exist. So if you have if anybody wants to join me, I haven’t seen anyone jump on yet. Finally, I want to leave you with some questions to ask yourself. All through Tecker International’s YouTube channel, you’ll see a webinar that I did maybe last year, or earlier this year, with Michael Anderson, and we talked about the business model canvas. In the business model canvas, when you’re looking at the value proposition, there are a number of questions that you can ask yourself, and the business model canvas is good for every association to go through. If you want to learn more about it, you know, you can walk through it and that webinar. But I thought I might ask a few of those questions for you to think about right now. As we move into, into our later in our days. The first is what value do we deliver to the member or our customer? What value do we deliver? Now we can look through the list of benefits that we have, right? But but that doesn’t quite do it? Because we have to ask the question of like, How valuable is this? Do people really care about the newsletter? Do they read it? Do we know that they read it? If they don’t, why not? If they don’t, do they still have value in it? You know, I might, I might receive the Harvard Business Review. And only crack it open. I’ll go ahead and admit it. I’ll only crack it open and read a couple of articles. I don’t read it front to back, I still get value out of it. I don’t need to read every article. here’s here’s the secret about community to online community when you’re looking at like Facebook groups or something like that. Is there a value there? Sure, there is, you know, if you think about what’s one of the longest running communities you can you can think of really look at like religions and stuff. I mean, this sounds sacrilegious. I don’t mean it to but like, you know, up and going to church, it was once a week, like, you know, I don’t know why Facebook wants me there seven days a week, but I don’t think that you’re failing, if people aren’t logging in every second of every day. I think that if you have meaningful engagement, and there’s value there and there’s trust there and that you’re offering something that they can’t get elsewhere, or at least not have that high quality, that you still have something that’s worthwhile. Right, and I think Hillary has this great point here. It seems to me that like brand value is the mind of the member. Yeah, it’s the mind of the member. So here we go. We’ve thought that associations were sole source for members may be no longer true members may get good content from other sources such as members, exhibitors, sponsors, trade publications for profit Expo. Yeah, I mean, and that is true, actually Bruce, you know, and we need to know that I think as associations, look, advocacy, no one can actually do this the same way that associations can sure you can have for profits that pay for, you know, pay for lobbyists and stuff like that. But the role of associations play and this and that they stick with it over the long haul. And that’s for some greater good for a group of members who all seemingly are after the same goal, or this continuous improvement. That’s special for associations, I think, as associations we need to double down on and really, really focus on the fact that we have that, but we need to get better at bringing people together, together, and believing in that, that bigger over all, something bigger than themselves kind of feeling that belonging, where we can effectively work together to solve a problem, even if it’s just sending in our membership dues to know that we’re making some kind of a difference. Otherwise, if it’s just one more subscription, if it’s just one more, you know, I have memberships to things that are not associations, you know, my Subscribe and Save in. Amazon’s a great example. And we don’t want to be like that, for years we’ve heard be like Amazon, maybe in providing tailored experience and customized, customized experience. But if we’re like Amazon, we’re not like associate we’re, we need to be ourselves, we need to be the very best associations offering what we offer that we can be, maybe we can rise to the occasion to be more technology, technologically advanced. Maybe we can get savvier about the way that we communicate and our marketing, maybe we can get smarter about the questions we ask so that we’re able to provide greater value to our to our members. But don’t want to say that we want to be like any other company right now, because we’re not companies, right? We are associations, we’re associations where we’re supposed to, and we are, in most cases we’re providing value through being trusted and being there and being able to be there for the long haul, we have to be smart about that, though, we have to be smart about the way that we communicate it. And that’s the whole point of the value proposition, you know, is figuring out when those values change, you know, when when we eat or drink our mission, or check in with our membership to figure out if we’re all you know, if we’re all, you know, doing what we want to do together. A lot of times in industries, especially, you know, as things change so quickly, trying to be the Association for all things ends up hurting in association, because, you know, you can’t really be all things to all people. And actually, here’s another book, race for relevance. I don’t know if you’ve picked up the latest copy. This is the 10th anniversary edition. And I do have for Association Chat, I have Harrison and Mary that are going to go into come on and talk with me in September. And I’m really, really looking forward to it. Because in this book, they talk about one of one of the main ways that one of the five ways radical changes that associations are supposed to make is they’re supposed to be looking at focusing on their segments, right, focusing on focusing on how to serve certain specific segments better, instead of trying to, you know, serve all people and in every way. Alright, so I’ve kind of I feel like you know, I also said that is going to reference a few books, I did have another one that I wanted to talk about. This one is a little bit older, creating customer evangelists. This has is by Ben McConnell and Jackie Huber. What they do is, I think that this actually really applies to associations as well, I’ve always thought very highly of this book. It was published in 2003. So it’s not ancient, but um, so creating customer evangelists, it talks about the way that you can go through and not dissimilar to the way we talk about creating these exceptional experiences for members. It talks about going through and and how you’re able to create these customer evangelists. So think about it as member evangelists. And if you have a chance Let’s go through and, and take a look at it. It’s inspirational because similar to the value proposition, I think it’s great frameworks that allow us to create better questions, right? You know, what value do we deliver to the customer? Which one of our customers problems? are we helping to solve? What are the new pain points for your members? Are they the same as they were before? Or have they changed? match customer needs? Are we satisfying? Which job? are we helping the customer get done? What bundle? What bundles of products and services? are we offering each customer summer segment? These are questions that you might go through when you’re doing business when you’re thinking about your value proposition. And as you’re going through and thinking about creating evangelists of those members, the people who are loyal because they believe in what you do, and they want to see your organization succeed, but they want to succeed together. All of these are great examples, these books, the will to govern Well, I’ll say that, you know, race for relevance, the five radical changes for associations, and creating customer evangelists. So that’s been Kiki’s book club for today. That’s also all I have to really say for right now about value proposition. And I am thankful to everyone who showed up I’m sorry, if it was a little confusing about finding where this discussion was going to happen. If you would like to talk about this more, maybe have a group discussion. You know, I don’t know, I would be interested in talking about it, too. So reach out. If you’re listening to this later, and you think you know what, KiKi, I think you you need to also talk about this in addition to it, let me know, because for sure, I’m always open to your ideas. So hey, yeah, Hillary says she has that book. It’s awesome. It is awesome. Actually, those those folks are are awesome, too. Well, I don’t know which book you’re talking about. Ben McConnell and Jackie Cuba’s, or Harrison Meyers, or Harrison and Meyers, Harrison and Mary’s or and I would say the world are governed? Well, there’s like, you know, four different people from Tecker. International who did this. So you know, Glen Lee, Paul, and, and bug crouch. So, anyway, all of these are great, Larry. Thank you, Bruce Bruce, who said the association value prop can be aggregating content for all sources, and the context of the associations mission and needs of its members. Some associations believe only they can produce content. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that, yeah, cuz he was responding to Hillary’s comment on curating and analyzing content from other sources. Truly not in an AI sense, very important. Because if, if we’re relying on just AI, we might totally miss the mark. Right. There’s other value there. But it’s also a way for associations to provide value. Yes, about that book. Thank you, Moira. Who said got here late and we’ll rewind it in a minute. That’s okay. More he No, I love you. And Kathy, Kathy was saying, Thank you, this is great. Look, I am so thankful that you were all here. I hope you got value out of talking about the value proposition I clearly could talk about this forever. And this is sort of the tame version. You can see why why this went for like an hour and a half yesterday with other people talking. But um, but what I would encourage all of you to do, and I know there are a lot of Smarties who are listening to this and who probably already do this but if you’re like me, it never hurts to hear it again. Just whenever you think that you are resting back and that you know for sure that you understand what the member is thinking and feeling. That is exactly when you should push back and start asking more questions. Because to imagine that we understand exactly especially especially in a time when so much is changing around us is a recipe recipe my friends for disaster. So with that, I hope you enjoyed it. If you have any questions or comments, please let me know always reach out if you want to reach out. I didn’t remind anyone but you can also tweet me and connect with me on twitter which is how I communicate with with most people these days and Thank you for thank you for joining me today. I hope that all of you stay safe. The numbers are up, you know, the search numbers are up pretty much everywhere that you look. But, you know, we’re here and we still have jobs to do. And I think that if we, if we go about it the right way, then we can lead at a time. That can probably be of great service to many, many people. So go out there do good work and I will talk to you soon.